What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)
Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:
• Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail
• Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable
• The importance of fame in building successful brands
• The importance of timing in product success
• The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”
• Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating
• Lots of real-world case studies
• Much more
Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality.
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Brought to you by:
• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application: https://www.pendo.io/lenny
• Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot: https://www.cycle.app/lenny?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=lenny
• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace: https://coda.io/lenny
Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing
Where to find Rory Sutherland:
• X: https://x.com/rorysutherland
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland
• Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Rory’s background
(02:37) The success and failure of products
(04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing
(08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design
(12:29) The MAYA principle
(15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous
(17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests
(21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking
(30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking
(31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor
(38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption
(49:21) The quirks of Google Glass
(55:44) Survivorship bias
(56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas
(01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations
(01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity
(01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel
(01:23:35) Where to find Rory
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author)
Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover: • Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail • Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable • The importance of fame in building successful brands • The importance of timing in product success • The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable” • Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating • Lots of real-world case studies • Much more Note: We encountered some technical difficulties that led to less than ideal video quality for this episode, but the lessons from this conversation made it impossible for me to not publish it anyway. Thanks for your understanding and for bearing with the less-than-ideal video quality. — Brought to you by: • Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application: https://www.pendo.io/lenny • Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot: https://www.cycle.app/lenny?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=lenny • Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace: https://coda.io/lenny Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing Where to find Rory Sutherland: • X: https://x.com/rorysutherland • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland • Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Rory’s background (02:37) The success and failure of products (04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing (08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design (12:29) The MAYA principle (15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous (17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests (21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking (30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking (31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor (38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption (49:21) The quirks of Google Glass (55:44) Survivorship bias (56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas (01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations (01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity (01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel (01:23:35) Where to find Rory Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
5 essential questions to craft a winning strategy | Roger Martin (author, advisor, speaker)
Roger Martin is one of the world’s leading experts on strategy and the author of Playing to Win, one of the most beloved books on strategy. He’s written extensively for the Harvard Business Review; consulted for dozens of Fortune 500 companies, including P&G, Lego, and Ford; and written 11 other books. In our conversation, we discuss: • The five key questions you need to answer to develop an effective strategy • Why most companies get strategy wrong • How to avoid “playing to play” instead of playing to win • Real-world strategy examples from Procter & Gamble, Southwest Airlines, Lego, and Figma • How to think about differentiation vs. low cost • Shortcomings of current strategy education • Much more — Correction: Roger pointed out that he made an error during our chat. When I asked him about Richard Rumelt (~16 mins), he thought I said Richard D'Aveni. — Brought to you by: • Webflow—The web experience platform: https://webflow.com • WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs: https://workos.com/lenny • Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot: https://www.cycle.app/lenny?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=lenny Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-strategy-roger-martin Where to find Roger Martin: • X: https://x.com/RogerLMartin • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-martin-9916911a9/ • Website: https://rogerlmartin.com/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Roger’s background (02:27) The importance of strategy (07:03) Challenges in developing strategy (08:30) Critique of modern strategy education (17:40) Defining strategy and the choice cascade (23:20) Playing to win vs. playing to play (24:57) Examples of strategic success (31:04) Exploring differentiation and moats (40:23) Applying strategy to real-world scenarios (43:39) Customer-centric strategy (44:06) Defining the market and product (45:31) Value chain and distribution (50:34) Cost leadership vs. differentiation (53:16) Capabilities and management systems (57:37) Competitive advantage and market positioning (01:06:10) Adapting to market changes (01:14:32) Practical strategy tips (01:18:44) Final thoughts on strategy Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead)
Jeff Weinstein is a product lead at Stripe, where he helped grow their payment APIs to hundreds of billions in volume and transformed the way founders start companies into a few simple clicks with Atlas. Prior to Stripe, Jeff led several startups and sold companies to Groupon and Box. He’s known for his customer obsession, craft, quality, and building beloved products businesses rely on. In our conversation, we discuss: • The power of customer obsession and how to operationalize it in the product development process • How to pick the right metrics and use them to drive impact • Techniques for getting things done at big companies • A group practice Jeff started to uplevel product craft, called Study Group • The story behind Stripe Atlas and its mission to increase entrepreneurship globally • Lessons from working with the founders of Stripe — Brought to you by: • Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application: https://www.pendo.io/lenny • Cycle—Your feedback hub, on autopilot: https://www.cycle.app/lenny?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=lenny • Anvil—The fastest way to build software for documents: https://www.useanvil.com/lenny Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein Where to find Jeff Weinstein: • X: https://x.com/jeff_weinstein • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffwweinstein/ • Email: jweinstein@gmail.com Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Jeff’s background (10:16) The “go, go, go ASAP + optimistic, long-term compounding” approach (15:38) The importance of craft and quality (24:15) Effective customer communication strategies (28:57) The importance of speed in customer interactions (33:19) Narrowing your focus (36:53) Why you should pay attention only to paying-customer feedback (40:24) Practicing silence when communicating (45:33) The role of metrics in product success (54:08) Empowering teams with a single metric (58:23) Picking the right metric for your audience (01:05:10) The importance of metric hygiene (01:11:33) How Stripe uses “study groups” for product improvement (01:37:20) Stripe’s Atlas: simplifying company formation (01:50:38) Automation and operational efficiency (01:55:13) Diversity and team building (02:03:09) Building new products within a large company (02:21:10) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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